Mrs. Moritz's 9th Honors English

Friday, September 08, 2006

Impressive...but Let's Dig Deeper.

I am really impressed with the discussion that is happening. Some things I want to clear up: Ralph is standing on his head because he's a boy and he's just messing around. I have no idea why Ralph is intrigued by the color gray. To be honest, I haven't really noticed that before in the book. The man with the megaphone (I think) is Ralph blowing the conch. It makes a loud humming noise, so the kids mistake it for a megaphone. Finally, the kids are on the airplane without adults because they have been evacuated from a war. They are from a boarding school.
Hope that answers some of your questions. Let's ponder this:

There is an emmerging sense of evil on the island. Where do you think it is most prevalent? How can we relate this to Macbeth?


  • I think one of the most prevelent senses of evil is the snake-thing that the one boy saw. I believe that it will have to severely injure someone or even kill them in order for Ralph to recogize the danger. I also think that there is a danger of uprising in the near future. The other boys might by plotting to overthrow Ralph and take leadership, maybe they will even murder him, as Macbeth wishes to murder King Duncan. The snake in Lord of the Flies might represent the mounting fear of never being rescued from the island.
    In one way or another, someone is going to get hurt in both of these books.

    By Blogger RachelL, at 2:41 PM  

  • I do agree that it could possibly be the "beastie" that is causing the sense of evil. But I did notice that this sense of evil is strongest when characters are by themselves. Has anyone ever gone downstairs into a dark basement, and then ran back upstairs as fast as you could because you feel likes someone's watching you? Don't be embarrassed. :) It happens to me all the time. But anyways, that's how I can relate the "sense of evil" to my life. Perhaps the boys don't really trust each other... or it could be symbolizing fear of the unknown. This could be related to Macbeth because Macbeth also fears the unknown, and always feels like he's being watched. And for good reason, since is wife is ready to rip his head off the moment he makes a bad move. ;)

    By Blogger RachelP, at 3:39 PM  

  • In my opinion, the sense of evil is most prevalent when Ralph and Jack begin fighting. This type of evil deals more with the evils of society and rumors rather than wtih a physical evil (snake). The restlessness and difference of opinion between Ralph and Jack reveals a power struggle between the two boys. Although Jack has already been honored as commanding hunter, he may yearn for more. It may also hint that Jack will attempt to take control of the island and its inhabitants. This relates to Macbeth because although Macbeth and Duncan were great friends and Duncan named Macbeth Thane of Cawdor, Macbeth was not satisfied. He desparately wanted to become king because the witches had prophesized that it would be so. Therefore, he considers rebellion by killing the king.

    I wonder if there was a driving force that caused Ralph's and Jack's relationship to take a turn for the worse...could it have been Jack's hesitancy in killing the pig?

    By Blogger kchurchill, at 3:28 PM  

  • I think that Jack is similar to Macbeth. I agree with kchurchill about his yearning for more. He is also similar to Macbeth because in chapter 2, he was going to kill the piglet. Like Macbeth he has second thoughts about murder. With Macbeth, he is reconvinced by his wife and he kills the King. It almost seems that Jack has a Lady Macbeth character within himself. The difference is that Jack's Internal Lady Macbeth was not strong enough to sway him into killing.This shows that Jack has stronger character and more good in him then Macbeth does.

    By Blogger katieorlandini, at 12:10 PM  

  • I also aggree with rachelp when she said that the evil is most prevalent when the characters are alone. However, I think that this evil is internal rather than physical. Whenever you are completely alone with no one else to distract you, your thoughts stray to the most forbidden parts of your mind. In some cases the evil could be guilt, while in others it could be fear. For example, when Simon goes into hiding away from the others in the dense jungle, it seems as if he is afraid. Yet he is ashamed to express this fear because Ralph becomes annoyed and angry whenever fears of the "beastie" (etc.) are mentioned to him (fiercely denies them).

    By Blogger kchurchill, at 2:27 PM  

  • I agree with what kchurchil said, that the conflict is internal and with what rachelp said that the "evil" is strongest when the characters are alone. As far as the "beastie" goes I belive that it is merely a representation of the things that the children fear. In this case they fear solitude, they may also fear the anarchy that I believe may come about it this novel. We see very little order on the island and the few attempts at order do not seem effective as they have no means nor any apparent desire to enforce the rules they have laid down. They fear being stranded and they obviously fear the unknown. In this case I think the "beastie" really represnts their fear of the unknown, they do not know whether or not they will be rescued and they fear the unknown areas of the island.

    Also, about Jack's apparent obsession with killing the pig. Perhaps his inability to help the "colony", or his overwhelming desire to prove that he can do something could be driving this obsession. Regardless, I do not belive that this obsession will benift the group, I can see this as a future conflict between Jack and Ralph. As their situation worsens I doubt the two will be able to continue this sharing of power and that this obsession could be a factor that could potentially isolate Jack.

    By Blogger Tony J., at 7:25 PM  

  • All these kids are evil. They just tried to escape evil from the war, and they are so young that they don't understand what war really is. When kids are little, they like to play with action figures and kill each other in "cops and robbers." So they are evil, because they haven't learned not to be. Like when they're mean to Piggy, they don't know yet what it does to him inside. And since there are no parents to keep them in line, they go all out.

    Change of subject a little, but I think all the kids on this island are wanting to be the leader. I think there is some tension between Ralph and Jack, and even though they are friends, they are also fighting for the top spot with each other. I wouldn't call it evil, but it's certainly a tension over kinghood.

    Just like in Macbeth. Macbeth wants to be the king, but Duncan already is. Macbeth just takes it a little farther than Jack and Ralph by killing the king. Macbeth is basically evil. Killing someone for your own benefit, is evil.


    By Blogger KylieYoum, at 12:59 PM  

  • As the reader, I am mostly preoccupied with how the Jack vs. Ralph conflict is going to end up. The beastie does not concern me becuase I think it is just a fragment of the boys imagination. The boys, however, are more bothered by the beastie than the arising conflict between Jack and Ralph, which makes sense because little kids are usually worried more about monsters and spooks than the end of order in their world. I agree with Kylie when she says that LOF relates to Macbeth because of the desire to be king. I think Piggy is like Banquo, becuase he tries to be friends with the leaders(Jack and ralph), but his loyalty eventually is rewarded with tragedy.

    By Blogger Julia B, at 1:32 PM  

  • I think this sense is most prevalent in Jack's need to hunt and i think this comes out alot in Macbeth with Lady Macbeth always thinking about killing Duncan and Banquo and the others.

    By Blogger Sander K., at 2:35 PM  

  • THere is an emerging sense of evil on the island. where is it most prevalent? how can we relate this to Macbeth?

    I agree with just about everybody. I feel the sense of evil is strongest when either a character is alone, like rachelp said, or when the group of boys are together and there is no real control in any situation. I think the 'beastie' the young-uns dream of and supposedly see is not a physical beast, like kchurchill said, but a kind of internal beast. The 'hidden beasts' inside all of the boys are starting to show through, though only Ralph, Piggy, and Simon seem to put forth their best efforts to delay and/or stop them. I hope that made some sense:) LOF relates to Macbeth in a couple of different ways, actually. First of all, Ralph is a lot like Macbeth. He is leader of a group, but is pushed around by Jack, like Macbeth is by Lady Macbeth. Also, like Kylie and Julia said, the desire to be supreme ruler is definitely evident in both stories. Even though Ralph is ruler/chief, Jack doesn't hesitate to bully him around. He eventually forms his own group, or 'tribe', and, because of his hurt pride, their goal becomes to murder Ralph. It's very similar to Macbeth, except Macbeth and Duncan are 'friends', while Ralph and Jack are bitter enemies.

    By Blogger Alison B, at 2:41 PM  

  • I do agree with Kylie and Julia. LOF realtes to Macbeth in the want for power. Like Macbeth, Ralph is trying so hard to remain the leader of everyone and not to mess up or do anything to get him out of the position of "king". But, I do believe that there really is a "beastie" and since Ralph is disregarding what the younger children have to say about the "beastie", something bad is going to happen, and Ralph will receive the blame and feel bad for not listening to what the younger children had to say.

    By Blogger erikaw, at 8:16 PM  

  • "All these kids are evil." I disagree with this statement. Yhey might me naive(sp), confused, scared, agressive, and mean at times, but I wouldn't make the generalization that they are all evil. As far as I have read, Jack seems obsessed and power hungry but not necessarily evil. He can be mean and inhumane at times, but he believes he can lead more effectivley than Ralph. Its through challenges like this that allows society to progress and find the best leaders, to fit its needs. Throughout the novel Ralph has exhibited concerns for the wllbeing of the group, and Piggy wants to insure their survival. I could see how Jack might be considered evil, but the group itself doesn't give me this impression.

    By Blogger Tony J., at 9:25 AM  

  • The statement made Alison about the beasts being inside the boys is something that I have never thought about before. Yet, I totally agree with it. The whole metaphor of this book is exploring human nature and whether or not humans are truly animals. From Golding's perspective he seems to think that we are animals. I really wonder what he's trying to get at.


    PS- has anyone considered that the fire might symbolize hope in some form or another?

    By Blogger RachelP, at 3:02 PM  

  • Maybe it just me, but this book really seems to relates to how some of the begining of man worked. Although the kids in ti have more knowledge of technology and was is possible, they struggle to use the resources they have to keep living or make thier life easier and more organized.

    By Blogger kkanski, at 4:26 PM  

  • "has anyone considered that the fire might symbolize hope in some form or another?"

    I've personally never thought of that but it very well could be. For instance when they discover the beast on the mountain and abandone the fire their, Ralph begins to despair, and loses hope of rescue, this attitude then vanishes when the make the fire on the beach.

    By Blogger Tony J., at 5:42 PM  

  • Unlike many of the people in our class, I have never read LOF. The comments from everyone are pretty interesting to me. Also, I have different ideas because I don't know what is actually going to happen or what everything signifies. For one thing, I see a potential evil that may arise involving Piggy. I feel like he may get eaten. The hunters kill and eat pigs. They are bloodthirsty. I find it ironic that Piggy is called "Piggy" when the main source of meat on the island is pig. Also, since he seems to possess more intelligence than the others, I feel like the "survival of the fittest" mentality on the island will get to him as well and he will become corrupt. I know my perceptions may not be entirely correct, but I can't help noticing the irony...

    By Blogger Whitney*P, at 6:55 PM  

  • I agree with whitney*p that Piggy may get eaten because the main source of meat on the island is pig. However, I do not think that the islanders will resort to cannibalism. I think that the idea that Piggy will get eaten relates more to a mental state rather than a literal sense. The boys on the island, especially Jack, feed off of Piggy's obvious vulnerability and social rejection to keep themselves happy. Its like when something bad happens to you and then you see someone who has it much worse than you do and you suddenly think "at least I am not him/her!" Basically, that is what the boys do to Piggy. They believe that they are superior, and when something bad happens to them they (akward topics of discussion in the group) they pick on Piggy to make themselves feel better about their actions. (may think "at least I actually did something...").
    I do agree with tony j. that the fire symbolizes hope. I think it symbolizes destruction as well. For example, the first fire they made burnt down part of the dense jungle on the island and possibly killed the deformed child. Also further in the book, Jack and his hunters often dance around a fire in celebration of killing a pig, which is frighteningly barbaric!

    By Blogger kchurchill, at 10:07 PM  

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